042: DONALD BRINK - Surfer, Shaper.

Image: Daryn Goodwin

SHOW NOTES

Do you really know what kind of surfboard you need—or are you just guessing like everyone else?

If you’ve ever struggled to catch waves, blamed your board, or felt stuck in your surfing progression, this episode with master craftsman Donald Brink will rewire how you think about board design, technique, and the soul of surfing itself.

• Learn why your feet, not your volume, might be the key to unlocking performance.

• Discover how asymmetrical design can help you surf with more control, flow, and intention.

• Hear how one surfer transformed his entire style by focusing on one movement: the bottom turn.

Hit play now to gain the insights that will permanently change how you look at your board, the wave, and your own technique.

Donald Brink is a surfer and board shaper based in SoCal, he is also a fellow ‘surf nerd’ who likes to break-down all aspects of surfing. In this episode we discuss; the purpose of a surfboard, surfing technique, style, wide points, rocker, volume, bottom turns + more. Donald also has his own podcast - Swell with My Soul.

Donald’s website:
http://www.brinksurf.com/

His podcast:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/swell-with-my-soul/id1395529749
http://www.brinksurf.com/podcast

Intro/Outro Music:
https://www.instagram.com/izzyouterspace/?hl=en

Key Points

• The importance of technique in surfing and how it can be improved through practice and learning from others.

• The significance of understanding the design and function of a surfboard to enhance surfing performance.

• The role of a surfboard shaper is not just selling surfboards but creating tools for people to enjoy the water and helping them achieve their vision through design.

• The concept that there are no bad surfboards, only the wrong board for the wrong conditions, and the importance of understanding hydrodynamic principles in board design.

• The discussion on style in surfing, defined as the transition between maneuvers, and the importance of fluidity and flow in linking maneuvers together.

• The idea that performance shortboards for the general public may not be as relevant as they once were, and the importance of showing aspirational goals through better ability and equipment.

• The concept that the best surfboard is the one you don't notice, and the importance of giving a board enough time to judge its performance.

• The discussion on the white point in surfboard design and its significance in relation to the board's length and the surfer's stance.

• The importance of technique in surfing, particularly in small wave situations, and the value of learning to read the bottom of the wave to improve performance.

• The future of surfing lies in technique rather than design, and the importance of being willing to waste waves and focus on mastering one aspect at a time. 

Outline

Donald Brink's Background

• Donald Brink grew up inland in South Africa and moved to Cape Town at age 15 to pursue surfing.

• As a child, Brink was asthmatic, and swimming was recommended to help their condition.

• After high school, Brink studied sound engineering and worked in a recording studio for many years, engineering and producing records with jazz musicians.

• Frustration arose from not being as musically talented as the musicians Brink worked with, leading them to pursue other interests.

• Brink got into surfboard shaping by first observing and learning from other shapers, doing everything except shaping for about 1.5 years before finally shaping their first board.

• They approached shaping with great reverence for the craft.

Surfboard Design Philosophy

• Brink sees their role as a liaison between a surfer's ability and their vision, using design to help them accomplish their goals.

• Customers are challenged to articulate what they want to do with their surfing and what frustrates them, allowing Brink to read between the lines of their responses.

• Focus is placed on designing boards that work in inferior wave conditions, which make up the bulk of most surfers' experiences.

• Brink believes that the future of surfing lies in technique rather than design, though progressive designs are still aimed for.

• Emphasis is placed on the importance of surfing on rail, designing boards with this in mind even if many surfers do not yet surf this way.

• All boards are seen as performance boards, just designed to perform different functions.

Surfboard Design Elements

• Wide points are considered an understudied but crucial aspect of design, staggered asymmetrically to help surfers.

• Volume is viewed as a useful reference point, though it can sometimes steer people in the wrong direction; focus is more on wetted surface area in relation to plan shape and rocker.

• Rail shape is emphasized for its importance in allowing a board to come alive when surfed properly on rail.

• Rocker and bottom contours work together with the plan shape to determine how a board will perform.

• Extensive experimentation with different fin setups is conducted to optimize board performance.

Surfing Technique

• Bottom turns are discussed, highlighting the importance of getting low, engaging the glutes and hamstrings, and keeping proper spine alignment.

• Good surfers read the bottom of the wave to anticipate what the top will do.

• There is exploration of how struggle and physical exertion can sometimes lead to flow states in surfing.

• Consistency is noted as a key trait among the best surfers, like Rosie Hodge, who demonstrate remarkable consistency in their surfing.

The Surfing Experience

• There is agreement that surfing is fundamentally about connecting with the ocean, whether hunting wedges or gliding on long runners.

• The importance of being able to surf well in a variety of conditions, especially small, challenging waves, is emphasized.

• Mental challenges of surfing are touched upon, including overcoming frustrations and learning to reset during a session.

• Observation reveals how time can seem to slow down or speed up during a good surf session.

Brink's Podcast and Future Plans

• Brink has started a podcast called 'Swell With My Soul' to share conversations about surfing, surfboards, and life.

• There is potential for building community through the podcast, with possible hosting of Q&A events in the future.

• Refinement of surfboard offerings is ongoing, focusing on designs believed to be missing from the market and those Brink is passionate about developing further.

Transcription

Donald Brink
It's as simple as that because if you understand it that way, you can look at a board and maybe understand its design. You can stand on a wave and perhaps understand your role. You can definitely walk away with a memory if you apply both those things. You want to surf better? Learn to knit. I'm fascinated by what I've learned only because of what I could learn next, not how much I know. If I forget what I'm riding within a few waves of a session, that's a good one.

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the show. That was a couple of quotes from today's guest, Donald Brink. The music on the intro and outro today is an original piece from a surfer and listener, Isabelle B., on Instagram at izzyouterspace. It's I-Z-Z-Y outer space. The surf trip in September with Taylor Knox and Matt Greggs, we still have a couple of spots left. Email me, mike@surfmastery. If you're interested and if you want more details, there's more details on my Instagram page as well. Looking to do a seminar on surfing and training for surfing in Los Angeles. If there's anyone interested as a participant or a presenter or perhaps even a venue host, please email me, Mike at Surfmastery. A lot of positive feedback from the previous show with Devon Howard. Yes, there will be a lot more longboarding stuff in future. Some of you have suggested some shorter episodes and yes, they are coming. Today's episode is a long-form interview Slack conversation. It's actually the longest one I've done. It's nearly two hours. It's with surfer shaper Donald Brink. Donald is a fellow surf nerd and he likes to break down all of the aspects of surfing. This conversation covers a lot of topics. Obviously, a little bit of backstory about Donald and is there such a thing as a bad surfboard. We talk about technique, style. We get into some details about boards, wide points, rocker, volume, and overall just a great conversation. Donald is very intelligent and well spoken, and Donald actually has his own podcast as well called Swell With My Soul. So be sure to check that out. There are links to his show in the show notes, both on your app and on the website. You can get there through his Instagram via my Instagram as well. Plenty of ways to find Donald and his podcast, and of course, his surfboards. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and learned a lot about surfing. So big thanks to Donald.

Donald Brink
It's funny, you'll see people set up mics and then they leave a big coil at the bottom and you're like, well, the impedance—I think it's the impedance value—the capacitance and the impedance is what messes it up. And then just running next to 220 currents is not usually good.

Michael Frampton
Did you study sound engineering? I did, yeah. After you left high school? Yeah. In South Africa? — How long was that degree?

Donald Brink
It was just a diploma. So yeah, I think it was like a year of study and then practical training. I worked in a recording studio for many years. So yeah, it was really fun. It was frustrating because I really enjoyed it. I mean, it was a challenge working live. Obviously, we were all good friends, so the band was really tight and we played pretty good music. But I started to engineer and produce records with some of Cape Town's best jazz musicians, which was amazing. But you end up in these positions where you're like getting called on to make calls or decisions in a recording that were important, obviously. But I was nowhere nearly musically talented like these people, which isn't to say you can't call the shots, but it was frustrating knowing that I was musically only so capable. Knowing—I mean, give me a tool, I'll build something pretty easily as opposed to fighting through the struggles of how I understand music or different and how naturally it was coming to other people. So I wouldn't say I wasn't in a flow, but I felt like I could flow better in other things. So I do miss it. I really miss playing the drums, but it's been probably, I don't know, I haven't played the drums yet in 10 years maybe. So I miss it, but you can't do everything. Maybe one day I'll get a kit.

Michael Frampton
What town did you study? You're from Cape Town?

Donald Brink
In? That was in Cape Town.

Michael Frampton
I am. You were born there? No, I was— You were 15, is that when you discovered the ocean?

Donald Brink
Born inland, moved to the coast to Cape Town when I was 15. When I wanted to surf. My dad got a transfer work-wise, and so we had vacation to the beach or the sea, and Dad said we were leaving. I got a wetsuit. In two days, I had a board. I was all set up. I hit the ground.

Michael Frampton
Running. So before you even moved to the coast, you'd already decided? Yeah, I was ready. Had you had a taste of surfing before then?

Donald Brink
No, I think it was the ocean. I just think it was the sea. There was something about the—I mean, I can remember the first time I saw the ocean.

Michael Frampton
How old were you?

Donald Brink
I would have been—the way I remember it, I would have been six. Yeah, I grew up asthmatic. I was really sick as a child, like really sick. And at one point, the doctor said it would be a really good idea to start swimming. And they said if you ever do or can move to the coast, that environment will be best for an asthmatic child. So that was always in the back of our minds. But I was the worst on the swim team. But I went and swam all the time, and then I'd always go along to the galas and someone wouldn't show up, and so I'd be the last guy and they'd throw me in all these races. I wasn't a great swimmer, but it was good for my body because I was so allergic to grasses that to play field sports wasn't a good choice. But yeah, just growing up trying to play sports. I was never a great athlete, and it translates to my surfing. Like, my technique's terrible. And when I see other people learn stuff or watching somebody else learn to surf, they take on things really quickly and then you realise, you know, the guy's like, he could play volleyball or, you know, field hockey within minutes too. And so I've always looked at my surfing and technique of what I am and aren't able to do in the water with the lens of being a poor athlete. So I work on it probably harder than others to get to whatever level I'm able to. But it is frustrating, yeah, building all these crazy boards, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter—nothing—unless you apply good technique or even just apply any technique, which then you can refine. So yeah, people look at these boards and some people, I think, expect them to be silver bullets and just answer all the frustrations, and they definitely are designed to answer some, but at the end of the day it's up to you.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, technique is key. It's—well, I would argue maybe the board's the most important thing, because it doesn't matter how good your technique is if you don't own a surfboard.

Donald Brink
The most important thing, yeah. I'll challenge that because I agree, but to take it to one next step would be like, well, even if you went body surfing without the mindset, just because you can swim doesn't mean you'll unpack that wave in the best way.

Michael Frampton
That's even more fundamental—is how you read the way water moves.

Donald Brink
How you read everything, yeah, and just the ocean. And I think the fragility of the experience, or the preciousness of it, or its abundance.

Michael Frampton
So you're drawn to the ocean, but why surfing? Why wasn't it swimming or kayaking or whatever? Why surfing?

Donald Brink
It's a lovely question. It must have just been within me because I can't answer that. I do remember the first time I saw surfing, or the first time I can remember seeing surfing on television. It was the Gunston 500. I'd actually need to look this up to see if it really was what I remembered, but from what my memory served me, it was about three to four foot onshore. It was 2:30 on the afternoon. I was surfing Durban, obviously, with the Gunston 500. It was Armando D'Altro and Pederson Rosa just smashing heats. I don't know. I think I looked at that and said I'm doing that. I want to do that.

Michael Frampton
And then—so that was about 15 is when you started. And then how did surfing progress into making surfboards?

Donald Brink
Well, back then in South Africa—and I'm so encouraged that it's grown and blossomed now—what surfing is now compared to what it was in my small world then. It's beautiful to see how it's grown. But I lived in a small little cove, one cove over from where I went to school. So this was all in Glen Cane. Glen Cane Heights was the beach that we happened to move to, and it was only about three k's across to Fish Hook, which was the next bigger bay where my high school was, and so on and so forth. But yeah, I just—that was the beach in front of our house. It was a short walk to the beach, and I didn't have a way to get to another beach, so I had one board and one bad wetsuit and a daily window to go and play. So it's—yeah, I literally just surfed that beach for two and a half years before I ever surfed another wave. And eventually, there were five other locals, and I got to know them all, but at first they were like, who's this kid? But with that, you got to surf other boards at that beach from those guys. And I remember the first day I ever rode a different board, because it sounds probably so rudimentary to say that a surfboard was a surfboard until it wasn't, because unless you had actually inspected the differences between them or actually felt the difference of how it even floated. But I was always naturally inquisitive of how things were put together or how things work or why they work the way they do. I actually grew up painting as a child and really enjoy art, so, you know, art and creativity and design specifically. Yeah, it was when it came to surfboards it was pretty obvious that I was exploring those things. So I do remember riding a different board for the first time and being like, well, this isn't for me. I was so used to my board, but I was like, wow, that's really interesting that it works for him, so to speak.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and how old were you when you shaped your first board?

Donald Brink
The shaping was the last thing I took on, so I earned a spot to watch boards being made because, you know, there weren't that many shapers around. And so I got to know the right people and, yeah, I was just a student of the craft. Every day I would watch Dave Van Ginkle, actually, from DVG Shapes—very talented shaper. And yeah, he saw I was interested enough for long enough that he was like, invited me into the bay, and every day I'd design my whole schedule. I'd work in the recording studio all day and knock off by 3 o'clock, and yeah, I worked hard. I'd wake up at 4 in the morning, delivered bread. I'd have a bread delivery run, be done by 7, go for a swim, start in the recording studio at 8:30, and worked all 3. Then I'd have from 3 to 5, two hours every afternoon. Gosh, probably a year and a half I can remember doing that. So, you know, I worked that into my life just to watch how boards were being put together, and that led for opportunities to be able to glass boards and do some fins and hot coats and airbrush and those kinds of things. So I'd done everything else, but yeah, it took years before I actually picked up a planer and grabbed a blank. But from then I was start to finish because I knew how to do everything else. So yeah, and I think I really should have just grabbed a blank way sooner, thrown in the deep end, but it was such an intimidating task to spend that much money on a precious blank and maybe screw it up. And I wanted to get it right, but I really reverenced the craft of shaping a board. And I'm not saying it's different or wrong today, but it just seems a little more accessible, especially where we are. I mean, you can even go and get a second blank. There was no such thing. I didn't hear of such a thing back home. So yeah, the barrier to entry seemed so high, and it was, but I think there was a reverence there that I maybe overplayed, but it felt real to me. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
If a non-surfer asked you what is the purpose or the function of a surfboard, how would you answer that?

Donald Brink
The board's there to turn so you can stay fitting into the best part of a curly advancing piece of water. That's simple. Yeah. Well, it's as simple as that because if you understand it that way, you can look at a board and maybe understand its design. You can stand on a wave and perhaps understand your role, and you can definitely walk away with a memory if you apply both those things. So either choosing the right board, fitting into the wave, and creating the best dance or collaboration between what the wave's doing and what it's letting you do and then how you can not even—you can't manipulate the wave—but you can manipulate your movements to then continue and get the best satisfaction out of it. And that's all they are. We make these crazy adjustments and changes to the entire craft, which to me is the most important thing, is that it is a cohesive design—all the elements working together so that you can fit in the wave and do what you need to do more often with more ease.

Michael Frampton
So I think you said to me something last time. I can't remember the quote, but you said you don't sell surfboards.

Donald Brink
Yeah. I mean, I can't remember exactly what I said, but I don't always see my role as selling surfboards, but you're creating tools for people to enjoy the water. And if that means selling a surfboard—I mean, you're always selling something, whether it's yourself or your expertise to an employee—for myself, I feel my role is more of maybe a liaison between somebody's ability and their vision through design for what they want to accomplish. And it's important for me to view it that way so that you're not—since it's custom, handcrafted art, so to speak—it needs to be thought of that way so that it's not just widgets or a numbers game. Not that other board companies that perhaps approach it that way are wrong. Just for me, I like to view it that way because it highlights why we're going to the depth with—and I'll be honest—the potential to get it wrong. You know, people trust you with their money to be able to design a rocker that will work. It's really easy to screw it up. I mean, it's not rocket science, but it's—I mean, every board, you got to be on your toes and do a good job as a craftsman, but conceptually be able to envision what they need and then build it well. So that's a risk a customer is taking, and I think it takes that to a less degree of how important that risk is or how much of value it is of the entire experience rather than just the board. So it might be the wrong way to express it, but I like to think of it that way because it helps put the preciousness in what we're really trying to do and the value in how dedicated I am to try and get that right for the surfer. I build boards for surfers, not the sea.

Michael Frampton
And there's a quote, I think it goes, people often say there's no such thing as a bad surfboard—only you chose the wrong board for the wrong conditions. Do you agree with that?

Donald Brink
Yes, Mickey Munoz. No bad waves, just the wrong equipment. I think that's how it sums up. I need to answer that carefully. Okay, yeah, there's no bad surfboards, but if any athlete were left with any surfboard—potentially an inferior one in this conversation—if you landed up with this board, you could learn to ride it. Now it might require a more athletic interpretation of what the board's consistently not wanting to be able to do and then what you're wanting to be able to do to dance with the wave. That's just going to require an incredible amount of skill. So I think there's a disconnect between how much ability you need to unlock a surfboard for what it's built to do. And if it's built to do something and it's built poorly and doesn't let you do that often, that to me is a difficult surfboard. So it might not be bad, but those are broad brush strokes because if you as a designer understand the hydrodynamic principles in a board or express what they should be in terms of a drawing or explanation and then go about your job poorly in crafting that, in my opinion, that's a bad craft, which could be a happy accident and still work well. But you have to hold yourself accountable to what you're trying to design. So that to me would be a bad representation of potentially a good design or a great representation of potentially a bad design. So you might build the wrong thing very well, or you might have the right idea and do it very poorly. So those are bad surfboards because that's not what you were going for, and you can't consistently get lucky or consistently just sort of stumble on magic. Sure, it comes into play, but at the end of the day, as a designer and a craftsman, what do you want to do in the water? Where are your pain points? Where are the frustrating things? And can we understand this thing to great enough detail to manipulate those things and end up with a better result? Does that make sense? Yeah. It's a difficult job because that vocabulary of what you want to do and what's the most difficult thing—where you're battling with or what are the pain points—to me, it's always the easier thing to look at than what do we not want to get rid of. Don't throw away all the good parts in trying to make it better. That's the constant dance.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I guess it's all relative too, because if Kelly Slater gave you one of his favourite boards and you happened to be the same height and weight as him, it might be the worst surfboard you've ever ridden.

Donald Brink
It would, but I do think you'd be able to learn how to ride it. It's just that demand would be a long learning curve.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. But I think the beauty about that hypothetical would—if you had a surfboard that had to be ridden right in the pocket, right in the power source—then it would force you to learn good technique, because there would be no other way to surf that.

Donald Brink
Surfboard. It's the only way to make it go. Yeah. And I think that's why people do eventually learn how to surf. Not even learn how to surf well, but at the end of the day, once you have a sensation of, that felt good or that worked or made that section, hopefully you start putting that little book of tricks together. The way I've looked at both my own surfing and watching other people develop, the way you put that little book of tricks together from one situation to another is battered with style. But you start to—you can see people that surf really well but they've got no style—but their book of tricks and their sort of reference of things to do and not to do from one board to another is actually very vast, and now it's the years of style will start to get better and better.

Michael Frampton
How do you describe style? Well.

Donald Brink
It's the transition between the notes. So if you're doing a turn, a pump, a release, a twist, an air, exit a barrel, enter a barrel—whatever those highlights are, so to speak, let's call those the notes—it's the gaps between the notes. So it's the linking together. I try not to look at it as a maneuver and then another maneuver—it's maneuver and then the gap between the next one. That, to me, is generally the biggest dictatorship of what is style and where it's lacking. Is it present, or is there a bad—the seamless transition, I think is—that seamlessness is probably the most difficult thing to pinpoint but to learn or articulate.

Michael Frampton
Fluidity, flow. Well.

Donald Brink
That flow is there, but flow between things, yeah. Because we're putting in these little exclamation points—that's why I like to look at them as the notes. You could stand up and be dead still and flow down the line on a longboard, which actually would be a seamless ride. But if you want to carve, cut back, hang heels, trim, backpedal—you know, all those things in a longboard situation—that's where the style would come in. So either don't do anything, or if you're going to do things, stitch them together in a way that you best should know how.

Michael Frampton
Team riders and long-term clients—do you watch them surf? Are you part of their surfing?

Donald Brink
Yeah, often.

Donald Brink
Sometimes people will send me a video of themselves surfing. It's pretty rare. One of the best ways to get onto the same page in terms of dialogue is even to see a video of the waves they're surfing. So sometimes, like with an international order, they'll say like, hey, this is my local beach, and that's very helpful. To watch somebody surf is even more helpful. I have a way of reading between the lines, putting together an order form. I challenge people on a few things to get some information out of them. I don't know, about the way they word things and the way they... Actually, I could pull some out right now and read them. What people are articulating they can do, what they can't do, how old they are. I like to know how big their feet are, their size, their height, their weight, all those kinds of things. But when last they surfed. Little things like that. So you can read between the lines, but to watch somebody surfing is probably the most bulletproof way of knowing. I don't like to tell them what to ride, but knowing what they're choosing to ride. If what they're looking for is going to fit what they're able to do or want to do. And to me, it's always like, what are you able to do, but what are you wanting to do? The disconnect between where you're at and where you want to be is, it should always be that level of—that's where the progress should be happening. I just see a lot of people sell themselves short of what their surfing can be. Like, well, I'm just going to settle for whatever. Or I'm just going to retire to a longboard. Which I love longboarding. I mean, all for it. It's just because you're getting older and slower or a little—you can surf not as frequently as you used to. I still don't think there's enough vision for what you actually want to do in the sea. Because just because you're older and slower doesn't mean you don't get to manipulate the wave face on a small round curvy board. It might not be a shortboard, but now managing a long waterline like a longboard, it just seems foreign. It really is to unlock.

Michael Frampton
Just as challenging as any other board, really. It.

Donald Brink
So it's like, why are you changing design now? Maybe you need more volume or so on and so forth. But it's really rare that you come across somebody who comes in and says, I want to do this with my surfing. And it's even more rare to have people come in and show you three boards and be, this is what these boards do for me. This is what I'm not able to do on these. These are the things I want to continue to be able to do.

Michael Frampton
Well, what do people want to do with their surfing?

Donald Brink
I don't know.

Michael Frampton
Must be some things that you are seeing more often than others. Well, you drag it.

Donald Brink
Out of them. I mean, there's definitely... But those are the things. They don't arrive with what they want to do. That's a red flag in and of itself. I think people do want to surf like pros, but they don't know how to unpack what they need to do to get to do that or what they need to be able to do that on.

Michael Frampton
They wanting to surf on rail, top to bottom, in the pocket, like a pro?

Donald Brink
So I think, I mean, it's a personal choice. Everyone should be wanting to do something quite different. But I think in today's day and age, people want to catch waves easily and need to be able to surf inferior waves well. Because, I mean, there are so many surfboards in this world. We don't necessarily need boards—I'm not saying they're bad boards—but boards that work in good waves are many. But I think the demand for when you're able to surf and where you're able to surf, even if you're a great surfer, it's those in-between days or those in-between good days that make up the bulk of your surfing experience or the daily memories. You know, like when you're able to surf and what you're able to ride. Or if you're able to beat the crowd and go down the beach and surf worse waves. And that's probably what I've dedicated my Small Wave Grovel Performance Board spectrum to, like just put all the focus in through asymmetry particularly, is trying to unpack opportunity for you to have fun in potentially difficult or weak canvases. Because, you know, the water's getting more crowded, but it's a great way to be able to surf other in less crowds or on your own. And even if you go on a great surf trip, you know, those grovel boards are important because they can be the last ones left that are definitely in the bag in case you get skunked. But, you know, you break all your boards and you've still got a chance to rip on something that is still relevant and, you know, tailored towards your ability.

Michael Frampton
Do you think that the performance shortboard for the general public is dying?

Donald Brink
That's an interesting question. I don't think so. I mean.

Michael Frampton
10 years ago were people wanting potato chips more so than now?

Donald Brink
I should be able to answer that so quickly. I want to choose my words carefully. I don't think it's dying because if you want to surf at such a high level, that's the only board you're going to probably need to be able to. But the marketing dictates that.

Michael Frampton
Be able to. My point is not... Hardly any people do.

Donald Brink
So if we're marketing top-down, then those are the boards you will continue to market, and so those are the boards people will want to continue to buy. I say right now it is probably down a little bit. My vision for the future is that it's going to be down even more. Not because they're not relevant, but the amount of people that can unlock them or actually need them. But unless we're showing performance, explosive or progressive surfing on anything else, why should anybody want to aspire to do that? So if you're stuck with X board, you need to see somebody at a higher level showing you how to unlock it. So that's pretty easy when you've got a world champion potentially unlocking a model. Obviously, you put your hand up to not be able to surf as well as them, but the aspirational goals are like, works for him, I've got a job to figure that out, and off you go. So you've got every opportunity to potentially unlock it to such a degree. I think it's up to you at that point. It's not the equipment. But if you do start to show a different piece of equipment, once that becomes the norm by other people showing you with better ability what those boards can do and how much fun you can have, once again it's something to aspire to.

Michael Frampton
If we use a car analogy, say the pros are on a twin turbo rally car that's super quick, agile and sensitive. And then average Joe goes out and buys a souped up rally car and he doesn't have the fine motor skills to apply the right pressure to the accelerator and just ends up driving a rally car around a racetrack at half the speed, looks horrible, wrecking the engine because it's all over the place. To me, that is when I see average surfers trying to surf performance surfboards in average waves. I'm just thinking, I mean, I used to be like that.

Donald Brink
True. I mean, I think we all were. And this is a good point to discuss now is, but we were still having fun. People look back and they're like, I can't believe we used to ride those rocketed out skinny thin shortboards. And it's like, the boards did not work, they were just very difficult to make work, especially in challenging conditions. But you're still surfing. Surfing is so fun. And I've had this long conversation with one of my youngest team riders and he's just surfing so well now. It's been years. I built him all these shortboards for years and watched him grow. And his dad came out of a performance background, so he was a really decent coach and still is. And he was saying that when you start any other sport as a child, the basic objective is really clear. Like you walk onto a soccer field and you within minutes know, we're moving this way as a team and putting this ball through that goal. So that's it. You get better at doing that. But the basic objective is laid out plain. When you go to the beach, you get to be in the water. You maybe stand and ride a piece of white water, maybe a green wall of water. There's no basic objective of what you're trying to do. It's fun from the beginning. And it'll stay fun for the rest of your life, which is so beautiful. But when you start to then get into deep technical discussions of how to surf, when to surf, what to ride—well, those things are—they are personal choices, but they are, it's real loose. It's just a huge can of beautiful worms. But to say that, it's like, we might have been on the wrong boards and probably won't go back to that because of being able to understand both sides of design and what to ride and what feels good personally. But we were still having a great time.

Michael Frampton
Well, the question I have around that, I guess, is if someone comes to you and they—and you know, they're a good surfer but they're not a pro level surfer—and they come to you and they want a souped up rally car, and you're saying to them, you should probably just be in a V8. Almost as fast, just a little bigger, a little easier to manage. You don't have to be as accurate with your technique, but you're still going to have just as much fun. How do you manage that? Like, you know this guy, you need a little more width, you need a little more thickness, a little less rocker, but you want this. I'm like, how do you manage that with someone?

Donald Brink
Yeah, obviously I understand my program a little more than anyone listening, but I don't really have that problem because my quote unquote brand isn't really punching out high performance boards as much as we do. I do enjoy building those boards a lot. So I don't have that as a common problem from a customer. I don't think they're coming to the brand necessarily looking for that.

Michael Frampton
Were they 10 years ago? 15 years ago?

Donald Brink
Yeah, I mean, that's age-old. I think the way I've tried to combat that, whether even if it's a longboard or whatever, an egg—I do, every now and again I take this out of the equation—but for the most part, I 100% guarantee my boards, unless there's shipping involved or something. I'm like, I'm not trying to convince them, but listening to their story and say, okay, I think we should go a little wider or a little bit thicker, or let's stay away from a quad for these reasons, but I'll hand them the board and I mean, I stand by the product. I'm like, I promise you that I'm going to build you the most fun board you've ever ridden that works for what you're trying to do. And if you hate it, bring it back. And they come back. I've—yeah, the stats are low though. I'm really proud of them. I did—I had two boards come back last year. I built them new boards. And it was two the year before.

Michael Frampton
Did you find new owners that loved those boards?

Donald Brink
Yeah, the one I rode in a contest and made the finals. So wasn't a bad board. It was, and actually that's a good story. I'll show you the board. It's one of my favorite surfboards actually. It wasn't a bad board, but the guy came back to me. It was—this is a great story, let's unpack it. Came in, looked at the website, watched what I've been doing, lived down the road. He's like, hey, I surf all these waves, blah. This is what I'm riding. He showed me about five surfboards that he had. It's like, okay. So I got a grasp of what he was riding, and the boards were actually pretty high-performance boards. I was like, well, this guy can surf really good, okay. So I listened to his story. I built him an asymmetrical, but he wanted something for those in-between days. So something a little more softy, grovely. So I built him this round nose, pretty complicated board in terms of the rails, the bottom contours, but it was a thruster. And imagine a high-performance egg, if there's such a thing. Built him the board and then he sent me a text saying, yeah, I had a couple of surfs, still trying to figure it out. I was like, well, give it some time. Then he called me and walked in about two weeks later. No, he texts me again. He's like, I want to come and talk to you about the board. I was like, absolutely. So he walked—I was like, bring the board around. So he walked in, and when he put the board on the rack, I could see he had a traction pad, but the way the wax had been worn, I could tell that his back foot was not over the tail. It was—straight away I could tell what was going on. And with the board and the design in question, I was like, you will never—some boards you can stand in the wrong place and unlock to a certain degree and still be having fun, and others you really got to surf within the design parameters, otherwise the thing—it's not even going to work. And this was a board like that. And so I said to him, I'll build you whatever you want. And he ended up—he was like, really? I was, yeah. So I made him a little fish, glassed-on twin fin, the whole thing was beautiful, and he loved it. But I said, I want to ride that board just for my own interest. But when I saw it and knew it was wrong, and I read the board, and yeah, like I said, I ended up surfing it and it's—I still have the board. I love the board. And that wasn't a bad board, but personally he wasn't unlocking the design because of poor technique or poor approach, I think. So, I mean, I think as a brand, you can't do that over and over, except for the conversations you have with people—what you're trying to build. At the end of the day, it's up to people. You don't want to tell people what to do. That's not what surfing is. But personally, I want anyone to tell me what I'm doing wrong so that I can surf better and have more fun. Yeah. So that was an interesting story, I think.

Michael Frampton
How many surfs do you think it takes to really judge a surfboard?

Donald Brink
That's a beautiful question. Nobody's ever asked me that question, and I think about it often because I'm overly optimistic when you first start surfing, and you're like, well—and then I became overly pessimistic in terms of what a board is and isn't doing. And over the years, with 100% honesty, I can generally tell a lot about a board if it's a personal board. So, a board I've made for myself, within probably about 20 meters. When I jump in, when I get onto a surfboard, I can tell a lot. And over the years, with that and a confidence of that intuition, partnered with—if I forget what I'm riding within a few waves of a session, that's a good board. And that's—I’ve usually found it's, yeah, so that's first session. I always want to give a board the time of day, and because we're able to, and I have been working a lot on prototypes of fins and different templates of fins and flex patterns and those kinds of things—it's a board with a set of fins, probably three surfs. And then, yeah, actually, I surfed a board last week on the swell that I actually almost sold the week before. The guy was kind of on the fence and I was like, you know what, let's just—he was like, I'm just going to get a custom out there, get it done right. And I was like, I like the board. I was like, yeah, it was my board. I was like, yeah, it's a little thick, you know, I like the way the board felt, but it just felt like it was too much board for me. And then I rode it in the swell, but I changed the fins and actually rode it as a twin with a trailer. And I’m—well, I was so excited that I didn’t get rid of it. So, you know, you can’t go through them too quickly. You’ve got to give them time of day. But that’s another thing—it’s like having too many surfboards can just get in the way too. I mean, I think you need a quiver of surfboards, but hey man, you can only ride one at a time. So—and I really think like those boards that I’ve spent a long time literally unlocking and trying. Some boards I've—one board in particular I can show you and point out there—I rode 12 different sets of fins in about three weeks. Just spent time on that board, just trying to really—because I could understand fins better by staying on one craft. So, yeah.

Michael Frampton
The best surfboard is the surfboard you don't notice.

Donald Brink
That's what I said, within three waves, you just forget that you're riding a new board or a different board.

Michael Frampton
And the best fins for that board are the fins you don't think about.

Donald Brink
Exactly. Because like I said, the whole thing needs to be working cohesively.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I think a lot of the time people don't give a board enough of a chance. I remember a board I got, and it must have taken me about at least 20 surfs. I got it and I hated it, but I bought it. I couldn't afford a different board. I just had to ride it. And I figured it out and it's my favorite board now. Was time?

Donald Brink
That the model you talked about last—but now all your boards before that, I bet the wide points were in different places.

Michael Frampton
The bunny chow. Yeah. Yeah. The bunny chow, yeah. Probably. Most of them are in the middle or slightly forward.

Donald Brink
Yeah. Because that's probably the most nuanced element from what I know of that board is the wide point's pretty far back on that board. And it's probably the most, in my opinion, understudied part of surfboard designs. And it's hard to give people more information, but we brought volume to the thing and everyone went crazy on what the volumes of a board is because it was one more piece of information I always get told, which is great, except for I feel like there's really big and valuable parts that we can articulate, like where a wide point on a model is. And if you know where your wide points are—for me, I stagger them asymmetrically for the way you're standing to help you surf—but from model to model, generally it's chalk and cheese. And if you understand which types of boards you enjoy riding, you don't even have to look at half of a lineup in the brand's itinerary. You can just be, okay, I'm best wide point forward. Let's stick to this half. And it actually can make the whole process easy. So, I mean, that's as much as picking up a straight edge in the garage, and you can do it in the lounge. Do your homework. Like, where's the wide point on your board? Go and measure it. Why does it always have to—and that's maybe the difference—is surfing needs to be rule-less and fun and free and whole thing. But if you really want to work on these things, it's like, you got to take that up on—you can't just rely on—because don't trust the numbers easy. You know, like I can ride whatever volume I want on the board, and people—I've seen that happen, you know. But the reason I don't put those dimensions on is because if it feels right, it's not a problem. But if you want to—like, do some work yourself, you know. Take it upon yourself.

Michael Frampton
Why do most boards have the wide point in the middle or forward? Well, hold on.

Donald Brink
The design...

Michael Frampton
Isn't that kind of relative to how long the board is? And the wide point probably needs to be at a certain place in between your feet or near the heel of the front foot, maybe? Do you think of it like that? Yeah.

Donald Brink
I would think of it... And this is obviously... That's why I said which types of boards are working for you. So, wide point back doesn't mean it's wrong. Just for certain people, that's what they naturally seem to unlock better when they surf.

Michael Frampton
But do you think... In my case, do you think it's where the wide point is compared to the length of the board? Or is it where the wide point is relative to the distance from my back foot?

Donald Brink
No, it's with the length of the...

Michael Frampton
Board. Is it? So, a... A shorter... A board that had the wide point in the middle, but was shorter and ended up being the same distance from my back foot, it wouldn't give me the same feel as the board that has the wide point back? I...

Donald Brink
Would say no. That's a... Yeah, that's... You've broken it down into a graph. I like that. I would say no, because when you picture that board on rail, as it should be, on a long drawn bottom turn, on the best, most committed experience, most of that rail line length will be buried, right? So, if that's 5'5", the deepest part of that rail being set be where the water's focused and compressed against most. If you draw that curve really... If you extend the curve outlandishly, you can sort of imagine the water hitting that most exaggerated part of the curve and then starting... It'll still hug and hold the water, but starting to release and then go off toward the tail. So, if you've got a, say, a 5'5", all the way on rail, it's in the middle of the entire craft. So, that sensation, because you're trying to control the whole craft, you're not trying to control just a back or front foot. Now, it would be much in the same place as where it is wide from the tail, but when the board's on rail, as opposed to a 5'8", which all the way on rail, it's going to have a sensation of having a more pivotal reference between your feet, even though it's not. Three inches back is going to feel like you've got that fulcrum, is probably a nice way to explain where that compression point is, where the board's starting to pivot or have an axis of transition on. It's going to feel like it's almost between your feet, when it's not, it's only three inches back. So, I look at the essence of a whole craft, like where the plan shape and the rocker are working together. So, an old 70s gun single fin would be seven, eight inches forward at the wide point, but then the nose is pregnant and bulbous and volumous, and then the tail's all pulled in. So, where was the point of compression? All the way up there, and then everything behind was control and relief, long guiding rail, so to speak. But when you look at the rail shape up there on those old boards, they were full and down, because everything was about controlling speed and drawing a line.

Michael Frampton
You talk about the board's designed to be on rail.

Donald Brink
Sure.

Michael Frampton
Most people don't surf on rail.

Donald Brink
They're still having fun though. I wish they would need to, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Though. I know, but do you still design a surfboard to be on rail, even though the person isn't surfing it on rail? You...

Donald Brink
You have to? Well, no, you don't have to, but if you don't, the sensation you'll walk away from the beach with—well, it's like getting a back rub with a jersey on. It's still going to feel fun, but just because they're not doing their job well doesn't mean that the waves aren't going to be moving upwards and shorewards with a curl. And if they happen to do the right thing, that thing's going to come alive. And, I mean, boards get sold to better surfers on the used market. No, you design for what the water's doing. I mean, I can make a board that's really easy to surf, and you can surf flat all day long, and essentially, it's probably more of a wake surfing situation. But at the end of the day, those boards won't feel like they're going fast because they won't ever have gone as fast as they could have. As opposed to leaning a board on rail and getting rid of that wetted surface, minimizing the amount of real estate in the water on a turn, as opposed to being flat. So, if you do happen to land the board on rail and then go back flat, you should hope to want to keep going back onto the rail situation. Or, if you went to a coach, for the best situation, it would be, okay, they'll teach you how to get on rail and the board will come alive. And then you take that to any other surfboard you're riding. Which is probably... I don't even know if I want to go down this... No, let's go down there. That's my biggest frustration—not as a surfer, but maybe as a board designer—is the influx of these big box retail softboards that you see in the water. And it's just a shame that they didn't design a more intelligent rail. And I understand the constraints of how they're assembling that product, but those softboards are really... I mean, when last did you really see somebody laying that thing on rail? And there are people that do surf them well, but, quote unquote, it's a flat surfing experience. So, the nuance of that experience, to me, is watered down. What was the first surfboard you rode?

Michael Frampton
The first surfboard I rode was a big 8-foot plastic Bic.

Donald Brink
Okay, what was the first surfboard you rode a green water open face wave on?

Michael Frampton
I had a 6'4" Local Motion.

Donald Brink
What color was it?

Michael Frampton
Off yellow.

Donald Brink
Perfect. So, think about that sensation. It's within you. Now, look at a generation of kids or people being exposed to surfing right now. That sensation of your first open face ride, it's part of your surfing fabric. And the rail shape and the ability of that board to be locked in on a rail is... I'm not saying it's impossible to happen, but it's pretty much defined into the accuracy of what it potentially could. Even on the best ride, that kind of rail shape with that kind of bottom contour and those kinds of fins—quote unquote, broad brush strokes here—the sensation in that design is... It's not wrong, because it's still fun, but when you go back and I go back to my first surfboard experiences, the sensations of having a board flowing through green or blue water for the first time out of the white water, that was a good rail coming to life. And those sensations—you just explained them right now, without hesitation.

Michael Frampton
Have you ever had a client ask you, I want a board that's going to force me to surf on rail in the pocket?

Donald Brink
Yes. Yeah. And it usually comes after building them a few boards. Actually, yeah, another good story. I've got a really good friend. I've probably built him more boards than... He's probably my longest standing customer. He's a big guy. He's 200 pounds, but he's tall and he's strong. Yeah, Tom. Shout out to Tom. Hi, Tom. Yeah, hi, Tom. He came in and I built him a couple of the boards and I let him try some other stuff, because he's on the bigger end of the spectrum. And he's really a valuable friend to have, because I can give him something that's that part of a demographic, you know, like, hey, how does this feel? How does this board with these fins feel? Because it gives me confidence in when I'm guiding somebody on the other side of the coast that I'm shipping a board to. So I'd given him some boards to try and he came back and he wanted a new board and he had sold one or two others or something. And he's like, what are you thinking? I kind of liked that board you had posted or a picture of something. I was like, no, that's still in development stages. Definitely a personal testing board. But he's like, yeah, I was thinking something like that. I was like, no, that's too far off. I'm wasting your time. I'll work on that design myself, you know. But I showed him a couple boards and I was like, you know what, you need to challenge yourself to surf more performance board. And I'm not telling you to get a shortboard, but I think you need to get rid of all the volume as an exercise. And I showed him that board right there, the one you're seeing that I just repaired. That's a magical surfboard. And it's a Team Rider board. And I showed him that board. I was like, look, obviously this is too small. But the concept of this board is—the whole premise of the board is to be—it's a fuller nose, it's only 14 and a quarter inches wide, the nose, it's 19 and a half inches wide, and yet the deck is flat. So that board is one and just under two inches—call it two inches thick—but it carries it all the way to the rail. And then the rail's really down. And that board—the concept of that board was to have a small wave, low rocker, groveling, still performance board. Yet with the flat deck, your interpretation of what you are doing on the wave and the feedback—I like to say the feedback from the wave—with those down-focused rails would be able to give you an interpretation of what you're supposed to be doing, what you are doing. So I was like, let's build you a board like that so that you can have a more performance sensation, but the sensation is going to be what you're going to fall in love with. And I said to him, I was like, you're biting off quite a bit here. Are you willing to sign up to have a board that doesn't paddle as well? And we built the board at six feet. I think I went out to 19 and seven eighths. So not crazy. The ratios were still on point and it was maybe two and an eighth. So not crazy thick. And yeah, the feedback was really good. He said his first surf he battled a little bit. He surfed, he got a few waves and then the tide went too high and it was really hard. So he kind of wrote that one off and he said the next three or four surfs, he forgot that he was lacking the volume. So took a surf and then he was back on the horse and yeah, enjoyed that board greatly until he got an ear infection and missed that last swell. But I can't wait to actually touch base with him later today and maybe tomorrow and see how it's feeling since he's been back in the water. So that became a daily driver. Great exercise. I've been doing the same thing too, just building really more high performance boards, for one, to understand them more, to make changes for some of the projects I'm working on. But yeah, it's important, man. You don't always have to make things easier for yourself. But...

Michael Frampton
A high performance surfboard doesn't have to be a souped-up rally car, does it? It can be a V8.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, in terms of surfboards in this conversation, I think once you've got a pulled-in nose and a tight down rail with a skinny profile, it's high performance. Just because of the way it does and doesn't float. Because you have to enter the wave with agility and the right—you don't even get a chance to unlock the design with poor or inferior technique. You don't even get a chance to play, niddle, and turn and bob and weave. So that to me is where I draw the line on what is high performance and what's not. Because I can make a 6'4" egg that's a really high performance surfboard. It's going to be easy to catch waves, but are you able to perform at a high degree through that design? Yes. As opposed to a high performance board where you can't even get into the wave, let alone articulate a good performance on it. So I actually think all boards are performance boards. It's just what are you trying to perform?

Michael Frampton
That makes sense. It...

Donald Brink
Sounds counterintuitive, but I think it does make sense. I look at any board and I see it's like a real watered-down performance board or a high performance within that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess you could almost think of it—to use music as an analogy—you could think of fast jazz as performance. But then you could think of something really simple like a slow classical guitar simple song. Someone can still perform that song. It's just they're getting something different out of it. So if someone's on a big fat fish and they're not on rail, they're just cruising down the line. But they're doing it with flow and style and grace and they're in tune with the wave. It's still a performance. It's just not competition performance.

Donald Brink
Maybe technical is the right word. It's a really technical surfboard, because you need—that's a great word—because you need good technique to even unlock it. And some boards are—they're less technical, but you can still unlock them. So it's back into the surfers, the ball's back in their court. I think a lot of people benefit from riding high volume surfboards, so long as you're trying to ride them the right way. And then when you go back and give yourself less volume, you feel like you're incredibly in control and the thing's so nimble and agile. So it's good to go both ways, but that's a recipe for disaster unless you're trying to train.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's interesting because I know a pro surfer who surfs really well. He's about my size, rides about one litre less than what I like to ride. Which is? I like about a 28-litre board for good waves, and he's on a 27-litre. But then I know another pro who's the same height and weight as me and he rides 32 litres on his high performance boards. Which is—so it is definitely relevant. I think maybe he's just stronger and has better technique. I think it's harder when the waves are good to get a higher volume rail into the water when you're going fast.

Donald Brink
I look at that and say I design around the pain points. So if he came in and said, look, I want this board, and the first thing you need to look at or ask or address or make sure you understood—personally I feel like, okay, let's say I make this board for you, and I do this often, and say, okay, whatever it's in question. It's a groveling board or high performance thruster, whatever it is. So let's say we assume we get all the dynamics right and all the elements work together and we've done what you asked me to do. What's the one thing that's going to frustrate you most if you got this board? So we've checked all the boxes. Here's your board. You go surf it. What's the first thing that, if it does, you'll be frustrated with? So for him, he would probably have said, I just hate the feeling of not having enough board under me and that lack of volume. So as a designer, then I can embrace volume and maybe tweak other things so that he can have control, but make sure that—just don't not give enough volume, which is hard to do. But for his sensation—and I would say I'm the same way—I love a high volume board. And it is hard to surf high volume boards on rail, especially in tricky situations or on long powerful carves sometimes, but you can pull the rails down, but that's starting to get into a risky territory design-wise. But that sensation, it comes from my muscle memory. Like I grew up riding—that board for three years was a flat deck down-railed Safari Spider thruster, a 6'2", I think it was. I rode plus volume forever that I just feel at home on that. He'd probably get used to 28. His surfing might even get better. But would he lose the joy? See, that's the thing too.

Michael Frampton
A very powerful surfer though. So he might need that extra. Yeah.

Donald Brink
It's like, you got to chase what's working, what you want to do, but then don't kill the joy getting there.

Michael Frampton
What do you think about volume as a way to talk about surfing?

Donald Brink
Yeah, well, I mean, volume is really irrelevant unless it's within reference to something else. Because if you can say 28 litres, I could hand you a ball. Good luck catching a wave on this. So 28 litres with extreme rocker clearly won't paddle as well as 28 litres within a fish. So I like the consistent variable when you're referencing a file or making a change. And this would be for an incredibly high athlete that can feel the subtle subtleties from one board to another. I think it's a really nice variable and dimension there. I think it's a fascinating statistic. I feel like it steers people in the wrong direction. But...

Michael Frampton
Is volume only relevant for machine-made boards? Yeah, you can't, right?

Donald Brink
Consider volume—I do not calculate it.

Michael Frampton
I.

Donald Brink
Would love to have a sink tank or a chamber. And I think that would be a fascinating trade show booth. Bring your board. Let's see what it really is. I said it the other day and it was totally off the cuff. But yeah, maybe a little out there. But I was like, you want to add volume to your board? Put a big traction pad on the thing. It floats. Like, it's just, are you looking for volume to catch waves or have freedom in a big or diverse lineup? Or are you—like your friend is—battling to—he's over-sinking the rails.

Michael Frampton
When people come to see you for a board, are they hung up on volume too much?

Donald Brink
It's definitely part of the conversation now. Yeah. And they'll quote volumes of the latest 10 boards or whatever it is. And it's great. It's a good reference to read through the lines. I still think the best way to come back to, okay, what do you want to do in the sea is what I'm trying to get out of them. So that vision element comes back and it's like, what's the most frustrating thing going to be? So if volume comes up too much or there seems to be a discommunication between what they've quoted or what they've said, when I ask them about frustrations, it's going to be not having a board that feels too big or battling to catch waves. So then you can kind of steer yourself in a certain direction. And that's probably just an honest conversation for anyone to answer within their own surfing. Like, am I battling to catch waves or am I battling to apply technique to actually control this thing?

Michael Frampton
Do you consider surface area? It...

Donald Brink
Was all about surface area. And that's within relation to the plan shape and the rocker. So I look at wetted surface area. So it's pretty easy to make a big surface, but I'm envisioning what that surface through the bottom contour and the rail shape is going to be steered as. So that's when it comes to bottom contour and fin positioning and angle. But surface area, yes, but when you're trying to manage it. So I'll give you as much as you can so that the feeling of making your way around the water is easy, but then once again, it comes back to when you're on rail or when you're supposed to be. And that conversation gets better expressed when you do, say, that pink board up there. I hate to design that. I've made them up to 7'2", but that board past 6'9.5", which is just the magic numbers over the years I've landed on, it becomes a different craft because you can't duck dive it. Well, you can, but you've got to have really good technique. Or if you're in powerful surf, that's a lot of board to get pushed around underwater, at which point now you may as well be on 8'5". So it's designed to be ridden at a waterline length. And then I control the volume with spooning out the deck. But saying that, volume is now considered incredibly. So I'm giving you as much volume as I can, but only up until the point where your experience isn't hindered by it. If you can't duck dive it, well, good luck.

Michael Frampton
Well, that's a good point. It's a...

Donald Brink
Really good point because it'd be the first thing that's frustrating for a guy coming in ordering a mid-length. I'm like, do you want to duck dive this board? He's like, absolutely. And if you don't, it's like, okay, well, now we've got some options to choose from.

Michael Frampton
Or even if you had a big, fat, thick twin fin that went really well in good waves, then all of a sudden you get a swell that's just pulsing and you can't even duck dive the thing. You chose the wrong board. It might work really well on the wave face, but if you can't get back out the back, then, yeah.

Donald Brink
That, once again, I say look at your surfing and see if you can—write them down. See if you can chart out where your pain points, where your areas of frustration. And you'll very quickly start to see what you need to start focusing on either technique-wise or board-wise. It's like, okay, what do you want to do? What's getting in the way here? I feel like most people's techniques—my technique certainly gets in the way before my equipment. And that was one of the questions I had in the boardroom. So that survey that you saw me compiling was, do you feel like your equipment or your ability holds you back as a surfer in your surfing experience? And across the board, it was people's ability. And that's the thing is, with the ability to replicate designs and models within these machine brands, there's a lot of really good surfboards out there. So it's about figuring out which one works for you and then unlocking it.

Michael Frampton
You mentioned foot size before. Does the foot length determine, somewhat determine, the width that you should be riding? I...

Donald Brink
Don't shape differently according to your foot size for the most part. I mean, boards are naturally bigger than your feet. But it's an interesting—look, you're driving the entire craft starting at your feet into your knees, waist, hips, shoulders. It's your whole body. But your leverage ability with bigger feet is of huge value. So if you are—and I mean, some of—even team riders over the years, I mean, obviously they surf really well and they have small feet. I'm not saying they can't surf well, but that's just a harder task for them without as much leverage. And often, you'll see somebody—you'll come in at whatever their height, width, and weight range is—wait, they've got really small feet. So straight away, their ability to unlock no matter what you design is going to be essentially powered with less of an accuracy. That would be a really interesting study, is to see who's on tour and—like, the average foot size on tour. There must be some sort of algorithm to be able to hide all that stuff.

Michael Frampton
Well, it would matter—I mean, some people surf with their foot at 45. Some people with 25 degrees, their front foot. So that determines how long your foot is on either side of the stringer at the angle you have it too. Yeah.

Donald Brink
Was it you in one of the podcasts recently talking about having the toes slightly forward to avoid injury? I think it was—Clayton. Yeah. Gosh. I can't wait to meet that guy one day. I really respect his ability to explain what surfing is and clearly, his vision for board design and how it's supposed to be used and what it's used for. Yeah. I respect him as—I've never met him. Yeah. But I always see his boards coming through Cape Town from Durban years ago. A couple of the guys used to ride Clayton and they were always white with the red and black logo. They looked so good. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
There's a South African—there's a word you South Africans use.

Donald Brink
There's many of them, mate.

Michael Frampton
Transcision.

Donald Brink
Transcision.

Michael Frampton
Is that even a word?

Donald Brink
It's transition.

Michael Frampton
Rosie Hodge says it all the time, transition. Do you mean transition?

Donald Brink
Sure.

Michael Frampton
Is it just like a South African slack?

Donald Brink
We don't even notice it. Rosie's the best, man. She is one of probably the most consistent surfers I have ever—I made her a couple of boards actually, but I mean, surfed with her a bunch and—day in and day out, she's never doing the wrong thing. She's a great surfer, but she's very consistent and that's probably why she did so well on the tour. But yeah, man, I've seen her ride all kinds of boards too and she's just out there doing the right thing in the right time. And yeah, I think that's always the biggest value to any surfer, is the consistency in your surfing.

Michael Frampton
Definitely. That's what makes the pros so good. They're so consistent.

Donald Brink
I wonder how much of that's a mental fortitude and unpacking what to do or if it's the way you've trained or if that's something—then you get good at surfing and then you become more consistent, or you're consistently getting good at surfing and then maintaining consistency in whatever level you're at. Because I'm confused on that. Why, maybe.

Michael Frampton
Well, they surf so much. That's a lot to do with it too, I think. Yeah.

Donald Brink
But for Rosie, for instance, in this conversation, when you see her riding an oddball board at the beach, like, hey, ride this thing, or you see her riding something, she rides within the design. So now all of a sudden, yeah, she's surfing a lot, but now you've changed the craft, and she's still consistently relevant. That to me is a good indicator of a surfer—if you're surfing within the design of any board.

Michael Frampton
Well, I guess what's consistent with good surfers is they read the wave, they read the water so well. So if they have an intuitive feel for where that board needs to be and they're reading the water well, then they pick the right line. Or they pick any line they want, essentially.

Donald Brink
Exactly, yeah. You've got a few more on offer, but yeah, that's very true.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, Clayton—the way Clayton breaks down—he changed my perspective on how to surf a board on rail the most out of any coach I've worked with.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I'd encourage people to go back and listen to those two episodes you've got with him. I think it's—man, I've referenced that information pretty often. Especially...

Michael Frampton
I met Clayton about two years ago, or first interviewed him, and my whole surfing before that, I was always looking down the line or at the top of the wave.

Donald Brink
What—the way that connecting the dots of the power zone was nicely said.

Michael Frampton
What I'm doing now—looking on the bottom. Where's the power zone? At the bottom. I want a bottom turn. Yeah. Yeah, and it took me—it was only about six weeks ago when I first did a proper bottom turn. So it took me two years of trying to get a proper bottom turn.

Donald Brink
Is that unattributed? Yeah.

Michael Frampton
I don't think people realize how hard it is to change a bad habit. And how demanding it is. If you can get a surfboard out on 45 degrees, and all your weight on the front foot ready to spring off, you've got to be strong. You've got to have good alignment. Yes. It's not easy. It takes a lot of focus to change the average shallow, not-on-rail bottom turn into a proper bottom turn. And the first one I did, I was flying to the top of the wave with more speed. I didn't know—I couldn't do a top turn. I was going way too fast. I was like, I'm going to break my leg if I try and change direction. It was phenomenal.

Donald Brink
That was on your front side?

Michael Frampton
Yes.

Donald Brink
With that growth and technique now, are you able to translate that onto your backside with that—not muscle memory—but that sort of understanding now of what that sensation is?

Michael Frampton
I've always found it easier to do a bottom turn on my backside.

Donald Brink
Yeah. So why is your board the same on both sides?

Michael Frampton
Good question.

Donald Brink
That's all I'm saying. For me, the asymmetry—I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I just looked at the common frustrations or the ability to leverage and reference oneself on a wave face. And your muscles and your body infrastructure is just different. Yeah, for that whole bottom turn thing, it's so...

Michael Frampton
Sure. It makes complete sense.

Donald Brink
I want to ask you though—Clayton explains that you go out there, it takes two years, you get to your first one. Do you remember it now because you've done one, or you're just constantly trying to refine what you've put into that one?

Michael Frampton
I had to put two pieces together before I got it. So Clayton gave me the intellectual piece. This is what you need to do. This is what you need to focus on. This is how you do it. You don't twist, you lean into it. Get that board on rail, 45 degrees. When your board's at 45 degrees to the water, that gives you... It's the same as jumping off a flat surface. You can push as hard as you want to jump. And then one of the other more recent interviews I did—or I did two in a row—I interviewed Taylor Knox and then Matt Griggs. Yeah. And if you don't focus 100% on changing that one thing—and you've got to focus on one thing.

Donald Brink
I enjoyed that.

Michael Frampton
Exactly. So you go out there, you don't even—the only way I managed to do that first bottom turn was just, okay, I don't care about a top turn. Yes. All I want to do is get into the wave in the right place, drop down straight, get it on rail, get the bottom turn. And as soon as I was so single-mindedly focused on that one thing, that's the only way I got to do it. And I combined that with another thing that Matt Griggs said, was that you've got to get in touch with the feeling first. So I spent a lot of time in the gym in front of the mirror trying to—I basically had a picture of Julian Wilson, his bottom turn, and I wanted my body to fit. How do I get my body to look like that? What does that feel like? And what I started to realize is it feels like you get this—how do we describe to listeners without visual? You feel... So on your front foot, you feel your glutes and your hamstrings are loaded.

Donald Brink
Okay.

Michael Frampton
Complete that—fully stretched—so that you're ready to spring.

Donald Brink
Got it.

Michael Frampton
If you're down in a squat position, no. You need to be in that lunge, leaning forward, pushing your butt back. Yeah. It's obvious when you look at Julian Wilson's bottom turn that there's all the tension through his posterior chain on that front leg. He's just—that muscle in the hamstring, glutes—is just ready to spring out. And you can get in touch with that feeling in the gym. And then when you focus, you go, I'm going to drop down, straighten the wave, fast as I can using gravity, get the board on rail, and I'm going to mimic—how does my leg feel? And can I lean that elbow towards my front foot to try and touch the water? And combine that with the feeling of the front foot, with the front leg, and focusing on that one thing, then it clicked. So all of those elements came together and I finally got that bottom turn. And I did it—I think—got three good waves and did three good bottom turns that day. I was lucky enough to be being filmed at the time, so I got visual proof of it.

Donald Brink
Sure.

Michael Frampton
And my hamstrings and glutes were so sore the next day.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I bet they were, yeah.

Michael Frampton
They were like, wow. I felt like I'd done three sets of one-rep max squats in the gym. I was like, wow, man. I didn't realize how hard—how much force that goes through your body to do that.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I think it's so fascinating. It's...

Michael Frampton
Night and day. The feeling of a bottom turn that most people do compared to the feeling of a proper bottom turn—it's night and day. And the amount of drive and speed you're flying up to the lip is almost scary.

Donald Brink
If you look at how much energy a wave has—even a crumbly wave—like, if you've ever been on a boat that's in the wrong place and you're going to get hit by white water or been hit by white... I've got that, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Good story about...

Donald Brink
Okay, like you realize how—and when you're out surfing, these waves are sometimes even more powerful and they're barreling or maybe could be barreling—the amount of energy around you, clearly on offer, if you can tap into it. I think I'm watching you demonstrate that and I've listened to those bits of information that you gleaned. I feel like the biggest disconnect is your position of your back, because most guys are saying keep your back more straight. I think if you don't come in with orientation of your spine and the alignment of where you're trying to be—because the thing of getting low and touching the water is great, except for don't do it when you're leaning over. So your quickest way there is to lean it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Donald Brink
Your quickest way is to lean, but then you bend your back. But you've got to... You—engaging the glutes gets your spine in the right position, because now your spring can recoil.

Michael Frampton
Have to practice in the mirror.

Donald Brink
Yeah. It looks like a real surf photo. We're looking at the before and after here of...

Michael Frampton
You. Yeah, I'll post... I'll put it up on Instagram when we release this podcast so people can get the visual on it. But that was the first day I arrived, and that was at the end of the week.

Donald Brink
You just did one? No, I'm kidding.

Michael Frampton
Three, only three. It was on the last day I finally clicked, I got the bottom turns.

Donald Brink
So when you... I mean, this is... Yeah, that's incredible. So when you surf, I know you've got a fascination for how to unpack small waves, and I do too. So when you surf on a small wave now, are you frustrated or do you get a percentage of that sensation on a small wave?

Michael Frampton
I'm trying to now... Because the wave was solid and fast and powerful in the tropics, now coming back to California and trying to get that same technique on a small wave, that's the next challenge. I haven't... It's hard.

Donald Brink
That's what Tommy Carroll unlocked. And then I feel like once you can do that, then now you're surfing, the boards don't matter, it doesn't matter anymore, and now you're playing with the ocean.

Michael Frampton
You have to read the bottom of the wave. And you have to read it in a detailed way. You have to be very focused. I mean, look at Tom Curren. Where does he look when he's dropping? He's not looking at the lip. He's looking like a foot in front of his board all the time. Yeah. And I think when you learn to read the bottom of the wave, you... Someone... This is not my thing. Someone else said this. A good surfer. When you learn to read the bottom of the wave properly, you then start to know what the top of the wave is doing based on the information the bottom of the wave is giving you.

Donald Brink
What's about exactly to be the top of the wave. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Clayton, his way of talking about it is you dig the rail into that part of the water, and because the water's drawing up to the top, that rail sticks and you get a free ride up to the top.

Donald Brink
I see. Okay. That makes more sense now.

Michael Frampton
But if you drop down and you put all the pressure on your back foot, you get a change of direction up to the top. But you lose all your speed. And you hit the top, you lose the speed, and then you drop down again. And that's most people's surfing, right? It's top to bottom sometimes, but it's very staggered. There's no flow.

Donald Brink
I mean, I think if you're battling the picture that's listening to it, just think about it for long enough and you'll make up your own picture in your mind. But that's the thing. It's just... That's like any of the board designs. Just sit here and think about it for long enough. Draw a picture of a board or a rail or of a bottom turn and top turn. It's not that difficult, but we just... Personally, I feel like often you don't take enough time to break it down and then figure out what's the next piece to work on.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, as you slow down any pro surfer surfing waves, you'll realize... And then you try and mimic their body positions on a bottom turn. You realize, I don't do that when I surf. I'm not that low. My forearm isn't touching the water almost. I'm not fully compressed into my knee and my hip with a straight back, etc.

Donald Brink
I feel like the future of surfing, though, is really in technique. It's not necessarily in design. I think designs that let you do things you'd never be able to do on anything else is really progressive. And I'm dead set on trying to be able to be part of that. But I'm excited to watch you start to articulate how to... I like those two points you listened to. I like how you put them together. I like how you've done the muscle memory. I'll tell you now what I'm working on, but how to explain how to do that or give a faster track to being able to do this in small waves is the future of surfing. Because I look at these wave pools. I look at, like I said once again, crowded situations. You end up surfing inferior waves. The best surfing is happening when you're able just to look at whatever wave size and be able to unlock it. I think that small wave situation, unpacking what to do there is the most valuable thing right now in surfing.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Look at golf. You've got the driving range. Tennis, you've got the ball machine and a coach.

Donald Brink
Generally, the beach, we've always got something small to play on. So that's why I look at it as a golf driving range. It's like, at least if you can learn... It's the hardest canvas. It's a driving range in the wind and the rain. You can still hit the ball, but you've got to be better.

Michael Frampton
It's almost like the driving range, but you're underwater.

Donald Brink
Yeah, something's changed. It's against you, but you've still got to change the play.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. But now the wave pools are going to offer that precious... Not yet, but soon. The preciousness of a wave.

Donald Brink
I think that's what has held me back in my surfing most is no matter what stage I'm in, I'm having fun. So that's great and a beautiful part of surfing. But when it comes to technically unlocking how to surf better or how to unlock a design, it's the preciousness of waves. It's just being willing to waste waves. It's the hardest thing. And it's so funny. I'll go out there and do those bottom-inch drills and literally just surf as many waves as you can. Just get the reps up. And even so, you're still precious with them. I don't know if it's because I love it too much or what gets in the way. But I think that's probably the biggest barrier to progression is just being willing to go out there and work on one thing at a time until you master it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's the willingness to go too far as well. So most people know what it's like to try and do a bottom turn too far out in the flats.

Donald Brink
Right.

Michael Frampton
And bog rail and lose all their speed. Everyone knows what that feels like, right?

Donald Brink
Sure.

Michael Frampton
Everyone knows what it feels like to drive out away from the power of the wave and bog rail trying to come back. Yeah. But do you know what it's like to fade too far into a bottom turn and just get eaten by the whitewash and get the board on at 50 degrees? You lean over too far back, and you're going through a bottom turn and you look up and you don't see any wave face. It's all whitewater. You're too far back. When's the last time you did that?

Donald Brink
Yeah. You went too far into the learning curve.

Michael Frampton
You think of how Kelly Slater used to surf in the '90s, like almost way behind, just almost surfing in the whitewater. He wasn't even... Do you remember that stage when he was just doing foam climbs and surfing super deep?

Donald Brink
That's why I look back on that era and I'm glad we're not in that right now. But people belittle those boards somewhat, but a narrow surfboard will let you be on 45 way quicker. And you give any good surfer a board and they're like, it just feels too wide. And it's like, well, it's the first thing they did when they stood up on the board was go into a bottom turn like that and realized how you weren't able to get onto that 45.

Michael Frampton
Especially if you've got small feet.

Donald Brink
Well, he doesn't. I was having a conversation with Kalohe Andino down at the beach the other day. We were talking about feet sizes and so on and so forth because I was holding this asymmetrical board and we're talking about, and I said to him, I was like, well, you must have boards you like on your backside versus frontside. And he's actually really articulate with what's in his boards, which I really appreciate. And him and Matt have obviously worked on those boards so much. And he's like, yeah, I can really, I like my, and I'm trying to remember exactly what he said, so I'm not quoting out of turn. But he said that he liked his flatter straighter boards on his backside because he can push on them for so much longer, which would be then a great choice to put on his back end part of his quiver. But if he knows he's surfing a back end wave, he might be gravitating to that part of his array of boards. So it's interesting, but he's like, yeah, and I've got like, I think he said an 11 and a half or 12. And he's like, yeah, my feet are flat. So he was really in tune with what he had to offer and what he was working with. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. I feel the same way. Actually, I'd prefer to ride my flyer backhand, but bunny chow forehand.

Donald Brink
Well, let's mix those up. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, why wouldn't you?

Donald Brink
You see, that's all it is. It's like my job, then I look at it as like, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or belittle any parts of a flavor of a board. So like those boards have the meat and potatoes or the kinds of obviously bottom contour plan shape. But wide point. What is the wide point? Where is the wide point? Like it's generically basically short boards. So pointy nose pulled in. They've got a curve that come in to relatively pulled in tail blocks. So that's the flavor. But then the nuanced details would be where those wide points and then which parts are working best in terms of serving the way you're trying to unlock a wave. And that's most obviously set by which way you're standing. So they weren't bad boards, but you were able to tap into certain parts more readily on one and not on the other.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's fascinating. The surfboard.

Donald Brink
It's so simple. Yes, it's riddled with... Simple for when you look at most other designs, I mean, we're not going that fast and it's not...

Michael Frampton
You. But.

Donald Brink
Most of them work fairly well. I mean, there's a world of details, but they are pretty simple. But just getting those simple things right is such a task. Yeah, it's funny when I've been working on my surfing and I think it's classic. Like anything you're trying to do, you get too focused on one area and then forget all the other things that you had either gotten right or had worked hard to include. And yeah, I've really been trying to work on more like one line surfing. So just no double pump of the bottom turn, just one bottom turn. And it's all good and well, except for when the waves aren't great. It's really hard to do that. So with that in mind, whichever waves I'm surfing, I'm working on the same thing so that I'm learning it across a whole spectrum or a variety of waves. But what happened was, and I went for a surf a couple of days ago with my team rider Ian. And he's got such great technique and he's very consistent too. So I always am getting two cents from him every time because I've asked for it. I'm like, hey, where am I going wrong here? Because I want to learn. And we walked away from the surf and I was like, man, I've been working so hard on like single power maneuvers, like single drawn lines. But I feel like I'm surfing so heavy all of a sudden. So I'd lost that liveliness because I don't generally surf heavy footed. Like I'm fairly hot doggy and lively. But trying to work on those single maneuvers, I'd flattened everything out so much. So now I've got this. But it was great because I realized that I was like, yeah. Because when I got it right, it felt great. But that liveliness in between was lost. And so now I've got to backpedal a little bit and figure out. I feel like I'm missing one piece in between.

Michael Frampton
The flow.

Donald Brink
No, I was trying to flow too much, I think. I lost the flow. Yeah. So intentional to just be trying to flow from one maneuver to another. Overthinking. I still don't know if it's overthinking or thinking too much about just one thing. So too focused instead of a broader view. Yeah, overthinking one element maybe.

Michael Frampton
So you've entered the podcast world.

Donald Brink
I have. Welcome. Yeah. I feel like fully ill-equipped and under-equipped, should I say. Yeah. No, it's good. I'm excited about just sharing. I have these conversations about technique and rails and rocker and fins daily. And to maybe capture some of them and share with people. And I'm appreciative of what I've learned, say, from your podcast in particular, about trying to literally just hear somebody's perspective. Which it's amazing the things I've gleaned from those certain episodes that might have fallen on deaf ears to somebody else. But for me at that moment, it meant something. And I look at the podcast thing as fairly evergreen material. The way we're going to be unlocking waves is not going to be much different, even if the boards change in 20 years. So I wanted to add to that conversation of what surfing is.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's timeless. It really is. Yeah. If you want to learn more about surfing, the information is always going to be timeless. Of course, it's going to evolve and boards are going to evolve, but the ocean is just going to keep doing its thing. We're going to keep going in there and trying to play with it.

Donald Brink
Do you look at your relationship with surfing as playing or is it a combination of that and a physical exercise?

Michael Frampton
It's always different. It is? Yeah. I think it's different every time. I think what's consistent, though, is you're getting outside yourself. You're getting into Mother Nature. Sometimes you can go out there on a longboard and sit out there with salty dogs and riff about something and catch the odd wave. Or you could take a performance board and sit on the inside and try and just hunt wedges and just try and catch, I want to catch 10 waves in half an hour and just go for it. And then out the back, there's the other guy sitting out there chatting and catching the odd set wave. Yeah. So you get out of it what you want, and it depends on your mood.

Donald Brink
But that comes back to our conversation. What do you want to get out of it? I think for me, maybe I'm just too much in my head because I'm literally dealing with this all day, and I love it. I love what I get to do, but I look at people that come in this door, and you want to shake them and be like, what do you actually want out of your surfing? You clearly are having these conversations in your head, but I just don't know that everyone is. And to be honest, it's like, well, here's your board, but I really can't help you. That's an honest response, I think, which I'm not judging them at all. It's intentionality. It's from anything. That's why I don't think surfing is any different to anything else in life. It's all the same stuff. It's connection. It really is.

Michael Frampton
I think that's how I would summarize it. I want to connect with the wave. Sometimes I want to connect with the salty dog out the back who's bitching about something. It's hilarious. But it's always a connection. With the ocean, it's a connection with the ocean, I think. That's the consistent. Whether you're out there hunting wedges or whether you're out there just chilling and catching and gliding on a few runners, you're still searching to connect with that wave, to connect with the ocean, to immerse yourself in water. That's always consistent. And it's always there, too. Sometimes the waves are just, I probably should do something else, but I force myself to go surfing. I'm like, no, I'm just going to go out there for ten minutes, catch three waves, and that's the best. I've never, ever regretted that.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I never regretted going for a surf.

Michael Frampton
I've gone, not today, and driven away and gone, damn, I should have just, like, ten minutes, the waves are tiny. I could have just taken the longboard out and connected for ten minutes and it would have changed my whole day.

Donald Brink
My ears have grown closed growing up in Cape Town with the cold water and the wind, and it's like I have to, like, ration my surfs because my ears—I wear plugs all the time—but it makes me so sad because... but that's kind of how I got to this place because I'll just jump out there for three.

Michael Frampton
I can't surf without earplugs. If I surf without earplugs, my ears are sore for the week. Really?

Donald Brink
Yeah. Which ones do you wear? The okay.

Michael Frampton
Docks. Okay. Vented Docks.

Donald Brink
Yep.

Michael Frampton
That's what I've found. I used to prefer SurfEars version one.

Donald Brink
Right, ones. The blue and black. That's hard to find, though.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, they were the best, but they don't make them anymore. Yeah. Yeah. The second version, it just doesn't fit my ear that well, so I've gone to the Docks and they don't necessarily stop all the water going in because they are vented, but they stop the water getting pressurized all the way behind the eardrum.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I think that's the difference, though. What SurfEars is trying to do is—it's bone growing over the hole of the ear so that it's so small—but the Docks plug, that's exactly what it is. It's giving you that tiny little hole, enough for sound to come in, but not enough for lots of water pressure to go in. Sure. And of course the wind as well. It's actually the bone grows over because of the wind. I like, say… but truck drivers get it.

Donald Brink
Think it's that combination with the wind because… that's right. That's why I'm thinking the wind is… and I've heard this obviously as well, but, yeah, like riding the bike down to Loews, it's like, I'll leave my plugs in on the windy days back home just because that's as bad, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's… I'd definitely surf more if my ears weren't an issue, so… yeah, I don't know.

Michael Frampton
It might be your music background might have something to do with that too. Yeah, I just… what's the loud music in the past?

Donald Brink
Yeah. Maybe. It's hard. I'd definitely swim and surf. I kind of stopped body surfing for a long time because, man, I'd spent so much time body surfing and now it's like, it's risky on the ears. And then just a few weeks ago at the Cosmic Creek, I had a little demonstration session there and ended up swimming out with Mark Cunningham in particular, and it was such an honor to obviously swim with him. But, yeah, I've just gotten back into like… I'm like longing to go body surfing more, you know. And it's hot on the ears, but, man, it's such a beautiful activity. It makes so much sense, you know.

Michael Frampton
Back to the podcast. You've entered the podcast world. What's the show called?

Donald Brink
The show is called Swell With My Soul. And, yeah, it actually ties in with what we were saying. It's like… I feel like the discussions we have about surfboards and surfing and life and how surfing fills and fits in within my life and people's lives and the designs in between, it's all the same stuff, you know. So, you know, the ups and downs of life and the currents and the swells, it just sort of makes sense. And, you know, what is surfing? What is your soul? Who are we? What are we trying to do? I definitely didn't and hope not to set out with any answers, but really enjoy wrestling with the questions, you know. I approach life that way because I feel it's more fascinating. But, yeah, I'm fascinated by what I've learned only because of what I could learn next, not how much I know. And, yeah, I just think for me it was to be 100% was a selfish motivation to both share these things but to learn from people. It's amazing what you learn having a conversation about all sorts of things from someone. And I think it's just for where you're at in that time and what's fitting for that day. Yeah, it's early days but it's fun to share.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it is. So, Swell With My Soul, iTunes?

Donald Brink
Yeah, on iTunes. I'm under the Surf Splendor Network and they've been really good to include me there. Yeah, they're helping in some of the production and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, hopefully we'll be able to do a little dual podcast launch on this or something. But, yeah, I'm so honored that I get to—I'm drowning out noise all day. Not when I'm designing, drawing out lines and so on and so forth, but the rest of the time, I mean, I pretty much put a curriculum together of things I'd like to learn. And podcasts have been so helpful in putting together a little glossary of what to learn next. And I think the conversations and what seems to be boiling to the surface is people really want detailed discussions on actual numbers on surfboards. And I'm happy to share anything I've learned. And if it's helpful for someone, that's great. I definitely don't know it all but I'm trying to learn every day. But it's funny how much you'd think that people won't really want to get into the nitty of like fin angles and actual wide points and where the dimensions are. But there seems to be a demand. So, definitely going to add to that and share anything we're learning along the way.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. On that note, if anyone's listening and has any feedback, if we touched on something people want to know more about, let us know.

Donald Brink
Yeah. And I think that's one of the visions. I feel like, you know, I must be 100 percent honest. I don't have time to sit and go through comment sections and reply to like—there's more than enough work to do at the best of times and just keep the whole thing afloat, you know. I hand shape every surfboard I sell. It's a lot of work going on and I enjoy doing it. But there are questions that are going to boil up and there's going to be things that people want to go into in a deeper setting. And one of the visions is, you know, maybe it's an annual event. It's a Q&A open evening. And I've done certain things like this around the world when I get to shape and do events with Whistler and so on and so forth. And it's like you have these beautiful question and answer evenings just around a few surfboards. And there's power in that. And one of the visions would be like imagine in a year like going through the last year of surf podcasts that you've hosted. And one of the questions… and I don't know. I like that we get to listen in private and I like that you can be at the gym or driving or doing whatever you want. But there is a sense of community that one needs to build and there's a camaraderie that can go along with a brand like you're building. And I think there's still a second element to that which can—I don't know the shape or form of it yet. But that's going to be interesting and I'm excited to actually see that. I think it's just naturally going to blossom and come into its own.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's cool. I love the medium podcast. It's a great medium and surfing is a great topic.

Donald Brink
Yeah. Well, what's funny about it is I don't think that it's only for people who surf.

Michael Frampton
Why do you say that?

Donald Brink
So, for me, for instance, I understood that the mental fortitude in trying to learn something and having to stay focused on a task while you're learning something is of huge importance.

Michael Frampton
It's ubiquitous, yeah.

Donald Brink
Yes. So, to try and surf better and as a personal home team building exercise, I started playing tennis with my wife once a week. And I went to the thrift store and we got old wooden tennis rackets because I wanted to lower the performance. And we're not tennis players. And we've gotten way better. Every week on a Sunday afternoon, we go play tennis. But it was a great exercise to see, okay, can I apply my mind to something that has nothing to do with surfing except it was all the same disciplines. Okay, I'm working on an entirely different hand-eye coordination activity, but mentally, I could break down the technique. So, it helped when I go out and surf and it's like, okay. And I think Clayton was talking about putting those—what did he say—those mental cheat words or… something like that.

Michael Frampton
Q words or something like that. Yeah. Just a word, something to remind you to focus on one thing.

Donald Brink
But like, he's probably pulling his hair out. Sorry, buddy.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, like little trigger words.

Donald Brink
Flashcards, got it, finally.

Michael Frampton
Trigger words. There we go. We.

Donald Brink
And so, I was like, okay, let's go into an entirely different discipline and get those trigger words. And I've learned so much through other podcasts that have nothing to do with surfing, but I can apply it to my craft as a craftsman and then to my surfing. So, it's all the same stuff. So, there's an overlap there that you can't dictate or even manage, which is, that's the beauty of the thing. You want to surf better? Learn to knit. Why? I don't know, but I bet you it'll make you surf differently. I mean, come on, you can't measure this stuff, but it can't not be happening.

Michael Frampton
I agree, man. We've all had that experience when time slows down. And that's what it's about. If time slows down, you take in more information, you make a better decision. It's that simple. And that is ubiquitous. Every single professional athlete knows how to slow time down. That's not the right way to put it, but they know how to tune in to the finer details. And that's the illusion of time slowing down. It's just you're processing more information. You're focused on the now or on the center of now, more specifically.

Donald Brink
Yeah, that flow state? Yeah. I've been listening to Finding Mastery, which is Michael Gervais. And I don't know if it's just more recent that I'm getting to that state more often when I surf. But I actually said to my wife just a few days ago, I was like, man, I don't wear a watch. I just hate being tied to something like that and having something else on. I was like, I think I need to get a watch because often I have a little window to go surf. Often I don't, and that's a luxury, which is great. But I literally have lost track of time lately just unlocking a board. And the next thing, the wind stops and five people get out. And the next thing, it's just two or three of you out there. And you get this opportunity to work on fins or whatever it is and absolutely lost all sense of time. Not being irresponsible, but just you get into this rhythm with the sets and pushing off a board. That wooden board sitting right there, I felt like I'd surfed for 45 minutes and it was 2 hours and 15 minutes. I was blindsided. And it was overcast, so the evening light, you couldn't see the sun setting. It felt brighter than it was. Yeah, I had to fire off—was really a beautiful—okay, kind of getting used to the podcast thing.

Michael Frampton
A ticket. That's what we're searching for, man. Yeah, it thing. How long do you think we've been talking for?

Donald Brink
It's probably hour 24.

Michael Frampton
It's hour 50.

Donald Brink
Whoa, 25 minutes. That's a—that is ridiculous.

Michael Frampton
Huge percentage. So we've nearly done 2 hours.

Donald Brink
Yeah, yeah, and I think for podcasting, it's great because if you don't like it, just turn it off.

Michael Frampton
Time goes fast.

Donald Brink
You don't have to listen to this. But there's something to having a long conversation. That's why I think we're supposed to eat dinners together. It takes a long time, and you eventually get to places where you wouldn't have just, you know, like a little stab in the dark. Wrong words. But a poke in the side.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, you're right. There's probably a lot of people that in the first 20 minutes of this conversation dropped off because we were just kind of finding our way. But if they stuck through it, then... that's—look at Joe Rogan.

Donald Brink
What a podcast is, I think.

Michael Frampton
A lot of them, they start off. But the next thing you know, it's a 3-hour podcast.

Donald Brink
That's how you surf, too. I actually had a really interesting conversation with my brother-in-law. And he was like, do you ever just have like a bad surf and you just can't get in the rhythm? I was like, yeah, absolutely. But I've realized my... I can feel it happening straight away. And then I'm like, okay, how quickly can I reset? And the goal is then to like be able to get yourself back in and then turn it into the good one. And it's mentally, too. But like next thing and how often I've now turned—when I just feel off—into magic sessions, man, and it's such an exercise. But I don't know what it is. You just find your groove again. And I think it's different every time. But just being intuitive to what that thing is and how to respond. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Part of it is a sequence of events you have to go through to get into the flow or the zone. And one of the things that you usually need to go through... it's not always the case, but we use it to help people to... to kind of open the floodgates towards getting deeper into flow more is the concept of struggle. So sometimes it's like, especially if the waves are big and it's like, man, I made it out the back. I was like, you're just famished. But then a wave comes. You just spin and go without thought. And then warm. Then you're in the zone. It's that struggle phase. And in training, when I'm training people, we use that as well. Okay, you're going to go five minutes on the bike as hard as you can. And then we're going to go visual reaction and decision making after you've been through that struggle. So that can—when you struggle physically through something, there's a whole bunch of neurochemistry that happens.

Donald Brink
100% agree.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And that neurochemistry is more conducive to flow. Sometimes flow just happens, right? You're sitting at the back talking to someone and then all of a sudden there's a set wave, no one's on it, and you spin and go. And you're like, boom, pull off the wave and go, what happened there?

Donald Brink
Yeah, you can't even remember what you did on the wave. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
And it's just like you're so outside of yourself. So sometimes flow can be completely spontaneous like that. Sure.

Donald Brink
So to that point, so when they had that—was it the Founders Cup at the pool? I didn't watch it because it was the boardroom show weekend, but over the highlights and just listening to a little bit of the feedback from that, I was like, I might be way off here, but if I was a coach, it seemed like one of the best things you could have made those guys do is paddle between waves. Because that's probably the most unfamiliar part was standing in ankle-deep or knee-deep water waiting for a wave. Like your mental game would just be—you've never done that. Yeah. Not a wave that size. And it's like I was just thinking about that cardio rhythm because I've really worked on my paddling, like how to paddle a surfboard, let alone into a wave. That's been learned from your platform and wow, with Rob Case and some of those interviews. But like literally before you even caught a wave, that's why you can just feel the flow. So I'm always thinking about boards and the whole design thing. But like before you've even caught a wave, you're starting to get in tune with your parameters, you know, and your breathing and everything's happening. And I was like, wow, these guys have been surfing every day for 20 years and now you've taken out one. It's like taking your shoes off as a runner. Yeah, that's a good point. I was looking at that, but maybe because I was overanalyzing it going like, what would I have done as a coach? Because it was a huge mental game, wasn't it? Surfing with the team, like everything had changed, but maybe that was one of the little things, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the variables, a lot of the variables were thrown away.

Donald Brink
Yeah. And you added some new ones and then those probably became the focal elements?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And some people basically. Choked. They did, yeah. Parko, John—John choked, like two of the best in the world. And then Paige Herra got into the zone. Yeah. For example, she was like the underdog and the World Team essentially was the underdog and they did so well.

Donald Brink
Yeah, I feel like maybe it's just where I'm living and what I'm trying to do, but I feel like the future is being able to get into the zone and surfing really well in small bad waves. Just because it's—I love the concept of really good, big, powerful, barreling. Like, I mean, that's still going to be the ultimate dream, but I mean, this is not every day.

Michael Frampton
I know what you're saying. Like, you see a pro surfing one foot slop and you're just like, what? Yeah. Can it be that fun? Wow. Yeah. How do I do that?

Donald Brink
Because I think if you do that, then when you get a half a chance to get barreled again, it's like, I think I can figure this one out, you know? Yeah, I really, putting all my emphasis and effort and focus on that part of what surfing is, I feel like it can never not be part of the future of surfing, whichever way it goes and whichever way it progresses, but that really challenging, small, weird, hard to ride. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
What's your website for the boards?

Donald Brink
The website is BrinkSurf.com. So, B-R-I-N-K-S-U-R-F.com. Yeah. That's all about to change right now, to be honest. Got a couple of things coming up and it's been hard, it's been good. It's served a good purpose, but I'm actually limiting the amount of things I'm making. Just, it's confusing for people and it's served a good purpose in terms of showing a variety of things you're working on and if you really want one, you can hit me up and we'll build you whatever you want. That's one of the joys of what I do, but limiting things to really focusing on certain design elements, I think there's definite parts of surfboards that are missing in people's either quiver or any availability at retail or, you know, that kind of thing. So, I'm working on things that fascinate me and that I'm testing and things that I really believe in and that I don't have to explain as much and if you want one, I'll build you one. Because the podcast is a great way to have these conversations about volume. So, if we can have you really thinking about all these things and not have to go through all these things for every order, it's not because they don't matter, but you can pick up kind of where we've left the conversations off. So, yeah, Donald Brink on Instagram. Yeah, there's always little things coming out there and yeah.

Michael Frampton
Cool, man. Yeah. Thank you for your time.

Donald Brink
It's fun.

Michael Frampton
We'll do it again sometime.

Donald Brink
Thank you. I'd love it. I'm going to report back and tell you how I've gone from overthinking the power flow to bring the nimbleness back into my surfing. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing as a challenge how you're unlocking that bottom turn into the small wave.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I'm working on it. Yeah.

Donald Brink
I think it's powerful. I'd like to hear and I think other people would like to hear too. And that's one thing too. It's like having feedback along the way and let the podcast sort of roll out on itself. Like I've learned a lot about surfing by just having a mental game plan on what I'm trying to do with my surfing, but for a specific session after a recent episode I did with Dan Goudowskas after his Fiji waves. And like, it was fun. So that's always going to be part of the conversation with reference to something we've learned together and then we move on. So, yeah, thanks for having me part of your platform. And yeah, kind of odd to talk this much.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate it.

42 Donald Brink - Surfer & Shaper

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.